Don't Worry, Blizzard Isn't Dumbing Down World of Warcraft

Posted by Ron on Wednesday, March 5th, 2008 at 6:05 pm under Blizzard, Computer, Editor's Corner, Features, Game Companies, Game Platforms, Games, World of Warcraft

515 Responses to “Don't Worry, Blizzard Isn't Dumbing Down World of Warcraft”

• Trefex says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

  Yadifricking da.

  Open up the damn content for all players.

  I don't see anybody still yapping about the fact they removed TK and SSC attu.

  And that you can get T5 for Badges might make it a bit more difficult to motivate people to raid, but still.

  Best,

• Shawn Sines says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

  I know I, as a casual player, will never experience these things.. and honestly it doesn't bother me but it is this exact attitude among the hardcore that drives people away from WoW. When I have to apply for membership in a video game social group, present references and then commit to it like a paying job - that is a sign I've got the wrong hobby and I hope someone shoots me.

  As a writer or creator of content I kow my appreciation comes from knowing people can experience it. It sucks that some of the hard work the designers do is never viewed by most of the players - acts like this reduce that and give back to the players who stick it out and also offers a dangling carrot to those who bridge the casual/hardcore gap.

• Mabus says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

  Plus the fact the expansion is coming out soon means it all be worthless in the end

• Anangryraider says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 7:43 pm

  Instances like TK and Ssc will become opsolete. No one will fight Vashj or Kael anymore, oh wait there is anotehr version of Kael on the new 5 men instance. Good going, degradating the lore like this. Illidian is a boss that only the worthy should be able to see in my honest opinion, or u can allways see him while doing the attunement. It actually seems that Wow is getting Dumber. Even arena gear is better than BT and that's before the release of patch 2.4, I can't imagine what season 4 will give. I guess it will do the same as the last patch before expansion. Making raiding guilds disband because of pvp. It seems eSport is more important than been an mmorg. Now people will go from Kara directly to BT. I'm just happy I have seen all the content allready, I guess they will be nerfing the encounters soon too so the "dumber" can see more of the hard work the designers did making it tank and bash encounters I'm not happy about this change, the quest lines are meant for something. It makes u discover and taste the lore, taking this out of the way, is just another game where you do stuff without other reason than getting loots. Oh wait, Hell, why raid I can do arenas, get gear and go on a killing spring in Nagrand, where pvers try to do their quests with their pve gear which is useless against pvpers. I'm sorry the game is going down the drain pretty fast. and with 10 mill subscribers the only thing we soon will see is just 5 men instances, daily quests and pvp rewards, goodbye to raiding and goodbye to wow. (btw, the vast majority on my realm have allready downed Illidian, only one not raidig are the farmbots and the pvpers)

• Grundy says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

  What I hear are the rants of people who only experienced raiding and PvP in TBC. People who played almost since Day 1 (with legacy PvP ranks and full tier2/3 sets on perpetual level 60 toons to prove it) remember how compelling this game once was on a social level and lament the very fact that TBC was ever pushed to the masses.

  It brought a slew of "hand-holding" new garbage to what was once a great experience in loyalty, politics, negotiations and leadership. I can write an essay on the changes from WoW to TBC and their impact on me and my in game experiences. My biggest points will have to suffice:

  Loyalty went out the window when you make a guild able to run end game content with 10-25 people max. You know what Kara was called back in Old WoW? It was called Upper Black Rock Spire. Know what BT was called? Zul' Gurub. Anyone remember how horde was the faction that had an insanely difficult attunement to Onyxia quest chain and still we had to practically sell our soul to get one of the limited Drakisath's Blood drop or the single spawn per instance of the quest item that popped on the floor in any random boss room in the hellhole that was LBRS?

  Seriously, in the heyday you had like 3-7 top guilds per faction, per server doing end game stuff and the rest weren't even capable of killing Ragnaros. Gold was hard to get, loot systems were flawed and biased, and although they still are, who cares about the instance drops when you can get just as good crap from badges and faction galore from every instance run. Mods were even just beginning to be useful (anyone remember the first time they got to the big rock ele boss in MC? We had no icons and nobody could keep track of crap).

  You had to be a good politician to even remain a member of top guilds. You had to stick to your guns and make enemies with a couple of the 80-200 people in a guild (numbers being huge since fielding 40 people for new content (wipe) day rather than farming bosses (lootwhore) day was a taxing chore sometimes). You had to not take shit personally, accept criticism of the both constructive and asshatish variety without crying, and NOT GUILD HOP. You couldn't leave a top guild since a lot of times your name became mud, you were known as a loot whore and no other top guild would allow you to join their core team (although you might get in as a benchwarmer or asskisser). Hell, now not only can you hop around three guilds doing ssc or the eye in a single day and nobody would give a fuck but you can literally ninja loot and scoot, pay for a name change and then rejoin the same guild and do it again for shits and giggles.

  Officers were grown ups who led their classes and guilds with fairness and respect of their peers and underlings. Nowadays you have little kids leading raids and the words fail or failure is tossed around a lot more than it should be (yes failures existed pre-TBC too). By grownups I mean mature people and by little kids I mean immature people. My best bud in WoW was a class officer for warriors and our MT and was only 14 at the time, yet he was very respected as a c/o because of his mature attitudes. Leadership meant something then and it doesn't now.

  I am sorry your precious TBC raid content is ruined by Blizz making it even more easy to play this game, but I haven't even touched on other issues like PvP. I grinded for months to get HWL because if I frigging stopped, I lost rank. Besides that you had to deal with PvE allies using their sick gears to whack out the pure PvP players since their was no such things as resilience and the changes to items for PvP and PvE. The best sword that could slay interweb dragons could slay people just as easily.

  If you hadn't seen the pattern developing though, Blizz made changes all over before TBC, like the dumbing down of the Ony quest chain or faction gains in plaguelands brought with Naxx (real players had exhaulted Argent Dawn from 5 manning Strat and Scholo before blackwing lair was even out). Even since the war of the sands (which is a world event that I am happy to have experienced, nothing like it before or since) the grand epic nature of the game has been declining to help ease players who don't understand or have never played a game like Everquest or Final Fantasy Online. I mean, WoW was never, ever as insanely frustrating as anything in those games, but even as player friendly as it was to begin with, you don't get a 10 mil subscriber mark that has yet to even peak catering to the few who enjoy challenges and frustration. You get that from catering to a more casual player base and over time allowing even more loose restrictions to entice a player base made up of almost anyone even people who hate RPG's or the notorious "durr I hate to read games I just want to shoot people". When WoW peaks at whatever number of millions of subscribers, the decline is inevitable, even if it takes 20 years or more, (all subscription based games rise, peak and then decline). At that point you will see them change things a lot more to cater to those they have left. Ultima Online still has people playing. Why? Because after it peaked, it never had any delusions about being a contender anymore and just opted to cater to the players who stayed and still enjoy it. We will see what the future of WoW brings, but it's not a game that will last forever like this, be it 5, 10 or 20 years down the line it will convert from cash cow to player pleaser. In all likelihood the peak will come from another Blizz MMO of some sort, hehe. They know how to make games

• Rico says:
  March 5th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

  The rant above mine is relatively troubling.

  The whole reason I quit wow was because people bastardized it into real life. They kept telling people "Well life isn't fair." But fact of the matter is that real life doesn't have dragons and orcs either.

  I think if WoW moves from a time consuming bitch fest to something a little more constructive and creative they will not lose any players, at least not people worth keeping. People think that the complaints they hear are the majority, but many of the times the only people bitching are the minority in the subject at hand.

  WoW is no different, a tiny group of raid whoring whiners will bitch about the change and the rest of the millions of players will smile and enjoy themselves.

  - Rico -

• Ron Whitaker says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 12:32 am

  In contrast to what Grundy says above, I'd say that raiding is far better in TBC than it was in the original game. 25-man raids are far easier to organize, set up, and manage. Additionally, the raids are more challenging now than they were in the 40-man days.

  Besides, anyone who experienced raiding back then knew that you could bring 25 quality raiders to a 40 man raid, and the other 15 were inconsequential. You could succeed on the strength of the 25. Blizzard saw it too, and made the fights more complicated, more challenging, and most importantly, MORE FUN.

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• Jason says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 6:41 am

  Fuck Raiders. they are a minority and their flawed logic of time invested = skill is more evidence of their stupidity and short sightedness

• Jason says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 6:56 am

  You wall of nerd crti text does not help yout argueent, it makes it worse. To suggest that "real players" earned rep by repeating, ad nauseum, the same instance over and over is a ridiculous suggestion. How does farming the same instance make you any more "real" than any other player? It doesn't. YOu just happen to think, for what reason I do not know, that because you ran instances and raids, that you are better? what is this based on? Many people are much more highly skilled than you they just don't have 8 hours everyday to play.

  You fail at life.

• Kevin says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 9:46 am

  Blizz removing attunements? You're no longer 'special' because other people can get into BT/Hyjal? Outraged that badges can buy loot that doesn't revolve around a random drop system, but is equivalent? Are you CRAAAAAWLING INNNNNNN MY SKIIIIIIIIIN?

  The choices for you are very simple. If this is so horrible for you, *quit playing.* Otherwise, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

  It's that simple.

• Aaron says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

  In response to the OP and others who advocate these changes, I take the opposing viewpoint on this issue.

  I find the OP's post to be more or less colored by the likely extent of his play, namely, his achievements are not going to be devalued by the changes.

  I support Blizzard's desire to open up a great deal of the raid content to all players, however, the only method of doing this currently, with fights no longer based on the gradual accumulation of necessary stats but of execution, there is simply no way short of nerfing the actual fight or allowing players to bypass it.

  I support leaving instances such as BT and Sunwell as the rewards for those who choose to devote time and energy to PvE (whether you value that form of play or not, many do) as the lore and superior gear are the rewards for a great deal of organization, time, and frustrated effort.

  The OP gives us a rationalization of "triumphant capitalism", he justifies Blizzard's decision to attack its hardcore players with these changes as economically sensible, which on paper they are. Attacking the hardcore player-base, be it Arena players frustrated over gross imbalances or PvE players upset over opening the floodgates for the proletariat to rip off chunks of their months-earned achievement, the result will be the overall degradation and failure of the game as future prospective players will be deterred from taking up the game due to its increasing superficiality and unchallenging and unrewarding nature.

  The question is, is this elitist? Yes, in a sense, but not totally. I believe many changes to content have been for the better, and I dislike the fact that Pre-BC the virtually ALL raid content was locked away from the majority of players. Currently TK/SSC is by no means unassailable, and the new 25 man format allows for smaller more casual guilds to more easily gather the logisitics to zone in. Badge gear, while needing to be kept in check, is not a terrible idea so long as it does not grow beyond the point of reason (and it looks to be) and gives casual guilds the gearing options to progress to new content. The mechanics of the game itself have changed for the better, fights are based on execution rather than the accumulation of stats over months, opening up possibilities for many players.

  Overall these changes are positive, however, taking the final bone from the mouth of the hardcores, BT and Sunwell, will have an ultimate negative effect upon those players that have worked to clear it and the game itself. In a sense we need incorporation of both elitist and populist attitudes to keep the game sufficiently approachable, whilst at the same time keeping it challenging with meaningful end-goals for those that choose to pursue them.

• Raan_Amano says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

  I didn't realize that there was a WoW mafia. A couple of the posts seem to be saying that you had to fight your way up the ranks of a mafia-style guild, and then you had to pick fights with your own guild mates just to keep your position. Then, you have to be "loyal" to a guild, who no doubt requires a regular tribute in order to keep you around. I'm with Shawn. This sounds like that elitist (mafia-style) guild speak where you've got to apply for a position in the guild, complete with references in order to be accepted. And then they expect you to play eight hours a day to prove your loyalty to the guild instead of playing the game for fun.

  I'm a hardcore gamer, but even I see the benefits of helping casual gamers to enjoy the game. If every MMO catered to the elitists, they'd all fall apart within the first year (two tops). I am against dumbing down any game for any reason. However, the new content patch doesn't appear to be a "dumbing down", but rather an attempt to rebalance the game so others can enjoy it.

• Badwabbit says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

  Blizzard is definitely dumbing down the game. I recently stopped playing the game due to my new job and would definitely consider myself amongst the hardcore when I played (our guild has had Black Temple/Hyjal on farm since June I believe it was).

  You guys are sort of missing the point really and this article is definitely written by someone who plays/played casually and did not achieve anything before content got nurfed.

  Basically, the problem is with Blizzard's timing. After all the hardcore guilds spent countless hours trying to progress, Blizzard waits until they get it on farm and then decide to nurf the content to shit. The hardcore are mostly upset that they spent all the time to get through the "harder" portions of the game and now it's just being handed out to everyone else with no effort involved. Over the past few patches all the bosses have been nurfed - another issue amongst the hardcore guilds - so that casual players can have an easier time with them. Once again, poor timing by Blizzard to wait till AFTER the hardcore guilds had to go through it.

  It's sort of like going to school for 10 years to become a Brain Surgeon because that was how you HAD to do it and then once you graduate the system is changed to where you can get it in 4. Do you get the point now?

  If the changes that are coming in 2.4 were standard when TBC hit, I don't think it'd have been as huge of a problem. But since Blizzard made gamers bust their ass through difficult content only for them to see it get nurfed so all the casual gamers can get it without blinking it presents a problem and hardcore gamers feel like they were robbed on their time and effort.

  If anything, Blizzard should do some sort of title or recognition for those that beat the content BEFORE it got set to Noob Mode as a standing achievement for what they had to go through. That's the very least they could do and at the same time I think would at least make most of the hardcore feel a bit better.

• Ron Whitaker says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

  @Badwabbit: As the author you're referring to, I'll let you in on my WoW perspective. I'm currently a member of a semi-serious raiding guild. I have well over 200 days played between my two 70's, and I raid on a protection warrior.

  My guild has a raiding force larger than that of most hardcore guilds, as we open our raids to our friends (be they guild members or not). We are currently 5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, and working on Kael & Vashj. The odds are that we will have both of these down prior to 2.4 coming out, as it is still several weeks away.

  Does this make me hardcore? Nah. We only raid 3 nights a week, 3-3.5 hours a night. I rarely raid more than two of those nights. However, we are still progressing, and we'll be 'over the hump' before the attunement is lifted.

  If you want to know what the real benefit of this change is, consider this: We routinely pull raiders from a pool of about, oh, 60-70 people. Can you imagine how long it would take us to get our raid force keyed for MH/BT? However, with these changes, Blizzard will allow us to actually see content that we might not have seen.

  This is a change that Blizzard should have made prior to the TBC release, and maybe they wouldn't have to reuse Naxx to get enough people through it to make the investment in it worthwhile.

  You said "The hardcore are mostly upset that they spent all the time to get through the "harder" portions of the game and now it's just being handed out to everyone else with no effort involved."

  No effort? Learning the fights still takes time. Executing the fights still takes effort. If a "casual" player wants to buy all the useful pieces of the 2.4 badge gear, they need some serious time running heroics and Kara to accumulate those badges.

  I'm not detracting from the effort that hardcore guilds put in. I can't imagine the dedication it takes to spend 6-7 nights a week raiding 5-6 hours a night. In fact, I couldn't do it even if I wanted to. I have a wife and a child that would both be after me if I did. However, I respect the accomplishments of those guilds, and can't see how these accomplishments are diminished by these changes.

  Did you get upset when Blizzard changed UBRS to a 10 man raid and gave the mobs a little nerf? It's the same concept, and a smart move on Blizzard's part.

  Be proud of your accomplishments, but don't let that pride color your judgement. Just because other people fight the same bosses doesn't diminish your standing in the least.

• DownWithElitists says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

  Look, if you are spending 5-6 hours a night raiding… hell, if you are even just PLAYING 5-6 hours a day you seriously need to seek psychological help.

  Quit whining about your effort and try putting some effort into the rest of your life. Then you might actually have "real" friends that you can do some "nonfantasy" stuff with.. like…oh…have sex!

• Grundy says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

  @Ron

  The whole point of my previous post was not to bash any player base or glorify a certain player base. I totally agree with your post above in that people like you and me have good memories from accomplishments and pride in our selves for it. And yes, that is pride in a game. I could give a fat baby's dick about the general negative attitude of people who say we have/had no lives or whatever. Most of those kinds of folks think that having a large gamer score in Live! means they are Dirk Diggler IRL and are hypocrites since they honor one type of virtual accomplishment and spit on another.

  All I was trying to say is that whining over any content nerf at this point is irrelevant in comparison to the humongous overall nerf to the game post-tbc to make it more easy for people to play. Whining wasn't as bad then because we had a glorious new land to explore and new 5 mans as we leveled. Like the first time you hit Wailing Caverns or Uldaman and it's just like you want to do and see everything as far as new sights go. It's only when it came down to the values and attitudes of end game content by the people of this MMO that I stopped this addiction pretty easily. I play now just to pvp a couple BGs every once in a while.

  My level 60 hunter is still at level 60 along with his trophies from 40 man days and I will not level him. I replaced him with a rogue who I use for TBC content and am very happy to see my orc hunter still looking as pimp as back when I was class officer of one of the better guilds on my server every time I login.

  I just fail to see why people are whining about a new patch and, I guess, was drawn to it because it was a headline on my favorite gaming news site. That didn't make much sense to me anyhow but I guess this particular patch and set of nerfs are making quite a few people complain all over the net. Just have some dignity and pride in yourself and your toons and take personal solace in it instead of cry and bitch and moan. Imo.

• Badwabbit says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

  @RON,
  Like I said, had these changes come into play at TBC's release, there would have been an uproar, but no where to the extent that it is now. The point still stands that Blizzard is seriously dumbing down the game, but more importantly it's just bad timing. This should be a change effective in WOTLK and not in the current expansion. They are still robbing the hardcore of all their time and effort.

  Sure, we beat it first so that's a standing accomplishment for ourselves. But, that sort of becomes a moot point when content is nurfed (as I stated, previous patches have slowly been making SSC/TK/MH/BT a hell of a lot easier than what we had to do) and, whereas we might have had to spend days or weeks on a single boss, everyone else should be able to get them down relatively easy in comparison to what we had to.

  Adding to that, BADGE items are as good/better than T6 in 2.4? Um, wtf? I'm sorry, but a Heroic requires very little effort because that's how they are designed. They are designed to be pug'able. Sure, a bad pug can still fail miserably at a Heroic, but if you're playing the smart way, you're more than likely doing these Heroics with friends or members of your guild, which makes a Heroic easy mode. In the end, you're basically giving a gamer who may not have the skill/guild capable of receiving BT/Hyjal gear and you're putting them on the same playing field as a T6 geared member (who worked a lot harder than the Heroic gamer) minus a few set bonuses.

  I can totally understand that the hardcore are a very minor portion of the game. I even think the last statistic released by Blizzard was something like they only make up 4% of the WoW population. Sure, Blizzard needs to cater to the masses and that would be the casual gamer. Hell, I've even said for a long ass time that I'd like to be a casual gamer simply because raiding hardcore felt like a job at times, but unfortunately I'm a very competitive gamer so hardcore was the only way to go for me as I'd like to get through content fast, efficient and not wait till the next expansion was coming out before I saw all the content in the current expansion. Still, the problem is poor timing.

  As I said, had this been done at the release of TBC or delayed until WOTLK, it'd not be as big of a problem, but even I felt robbed when I saw all these changes. Doing all of those fights before they got nurfed was a pain in the ass at times and then to first see them get nurfed so that others could do it more easily was one thing. Then after that they started to remove the attunements. Then they started nurfing the trash in Black Temple. Then they nurfed the trash before Kaelthas and then finally nurfed the Kaelthas fight and practically every other fight. Blizzard has slowly been nurfing the entire game and it just happened to be after all the hardcore guilds did the game on 'Dante Must Die' mode and now it's been set to 'Semi-Pro'.

  Sure, Sunwell is around the corner and it's suppose to be for "T6 geared" people. So that must be something the hardcore has to look for right? Oh shit, I forgot. Badge items in 2.4 are T6. Welp, there goes that. Basically, the entire game as of 2.4 is officially for the casual gamer. So, the masses can rejoice, but all those that worked so hard to get everything are basically robbed on their time and effort.

  In the end, it's bad timing and a big F'U to the hardcore. As of 2.4 there really little reason to be a hardcore WoW player. Everyone is virtually on the same playing field. Hell, Blizzard even screwed up on PVP. Why are some of the PVP weapons for certain classes the best weapons in the game? That makes no sense whatsoever. PVP gear should never be viable in a raid environment and vice versa. The whole game is slowly desolving.

  @DownWithElitists
  Why does the word hardcore or elite always mean "someone with no life"? Sure, I played quite a bit. But, I also work full time, have a girlfriend, support my family and continue to do my "real life hobbies" (airsoft, snowboarding mostly). I just know how to manage my time. Don't always assume that the hardcore have no life. Some people's situations are just better than your own. You're the typical "A-Gamer" who probably cries when he gets sniped in Halo or screams "HACKER!" when you see someone get more than one headshot in a row.

• Steve says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 8:44 am

  This article appears to be lacking the breadth of topic to give reason as to why it's outside the official WoW forums. I play WoW, have done for years, but this seems like the comments of someone who didn't want to respond in an existing thread and wanted their own to be read.

  As to the topic itself, Blizz has made itself clear - it's going to use attunements as a pacing mechanism, and when that's no longer necessary they'll open up the content for the wider populace to experience. Given that's not a new policy, I don't know why people are complaining - be happy with what you've got, or find a game provider who shares your views on keeping the elite elite, as it were.

• Legotick says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  Mabus made a good point.

  Our guild starting raiding really late, after months of raiding and farming MC, Ony, and BWL, I had finally completed my Tier 1 set and some Tier 2 in the bank… then TBC came out and all of my set pieces were replaced by the time I had hit 61.

  I hope this is not the case with the next xpac.

• JoJo says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

  Bliz, hold the phone, cancel the patch that will allow for 99% of their players to continue playing and see all the purty contents the designers have poured countless hours sweat and tear into.

  Badwabbit
  Someone wearing T6 comparable gear won't clear Hyjal or BT without the knowledge and experience. I've pugged with players in t4 that couldn't out-tank a squishy or a dps that couldn't out-dps anything holy or resto.

  I clap for your achievements Badwabbit - [clap] [clap] you are #1, go you!

  Now… where can I buy my T6 comparable gear using my badges that I obtained through 2 hours a night 3 nights a week running heroics and kara.

• CasualPlayer says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

  I have to disagree with some of the points of this article. First off, I'm not a hardcore WoW player - my highest level character is only level 30. I'm all for making WoW accessible to gamers of every type and skill. But WoW is a game, and games are competitive. There is nothing wrong with rewarding those who are more skilled or who are willing to devote more time and effort to the game than others. Yes, I agree, elitists are pricks that shouldn't be catered to. But I have to believe that not everyone who objects to changes like this are elitist jerks and it sounds like the changes discussed in this article are undervaluing their efforts. I'm totally fine with the fact that I may never see some of these dungeons. I'm also fine with the fact that I can't ski black diamond runs but I don't expect ski resorts to turn their black diamond runs into blues and greens.

• JoJo says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

  The more skilled are rewarded with the rights to say, yes we cleared Hyjal and BT and points beyond and can stand in front of the major cities wearing their T6+ gear so all others can see and go 'wooooowwww, that person is awesome!!!!'.

  CasualPlayer, what is your goal in this game? Obviously it's not to see what all the game has to offer as a whole. At level 30… you haven't seen anything yet and probably never have a chance to.

  Our guild is a casual one, all of us are adults with jobs, we all would like to see all that WoW has to offer. We all would like to get there, with out the expense of giving up our real life responsibilities in doing so.

  Lets remind all those that are hissy fitting patch 2.4… if your feelings are hurt that others will be given an opportunity to see the same content that you are seeing from the same game and paying the same monthly fee as you. WoW is a game.

• JoJo says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

  All that being said… now… focus your competitiveness and devotion to something that will make a difference in your life, and everyones around you… and this entire conversation will be laughable.

  Go go hardcore gamers!!

• AFK says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

  Badwabbit, you just want others to know what you've achieved in a video game? lol…

  hahah… omg… thats so sad but funny.

  Dude, go outside.

• Michael says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

  I agree with everything that this guy said. I was stuck in a casual guild with alot of skill and couldnt progress well because of gear and that hurt we could have done so much more. but i tried to get out and join a better guild a semi- hardcore raiding guild but they wouldnt accept me for 2 reasons my age and my gear and I had a good reputation as a great tank to but i couldnt get into guilds so i just quit.

• Michael says:
  March 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

  Oh and your missing the key point of this even if they take attunements out people still have to progress through bosses and everythign hardcore people did. and the gear from badge of justices you still have to earn that to last i heard Heroic dungeons are still hard for casual people.

• Richard says:
  March 8th, 2008 at 10:53 am

  The hardcore raiders can FO. Its there attitude of "we spend alot of time in play, we deserve the best loots" is driving people away and ruining the game. Some people have lives beyond the game and can't spend 6 hours a night, 6 days a week dedicated to raiding (Hello Nihilum at TBC launch until Illidan died).

  Blizzard lifted the attutments to get people into all these raids. From the statistics I've seen running around only about 2% of guilds are the MH/BT level of stuff. Its this vocal minority that is screaming bloody murder and the funny part most people don't really care.

  As for the badge loot in 2.4 (and the increase in badge loot since TBC launch) I think is indication of fundamental change in loot progression that not only will carry over in WotLK and be expanded. Going away are the days of running raid after raid hoping an item to drop and say hello to getting tokes to turn in for comparable gear to help keep you geared on par with the people getting the drops.

  Being further progressed than me doesn't mean your a better player, it justs means you have more time.

  Hopefully when WAR and AoC come out all the elistist dicks in WoW pissed off about the "dumbing" down of it will go play those games.

• Dewayne says:
  March 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

  They won't they'll still complain how Blizzard ruined their game and how they can't have all the lore content to themselves

• Reality says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 10:43 am

  "It's sort of like going to school for 10 years to become a Brain Surgeon because that was how you HAD to do it and then once you graduate the system is changed to where you can get it in 4. Do you get the point now?"

  I understand that this game means different things to different people, hardcore and casual alike. I'm not going to take a side one way or the other in that debate, but when comparisons start being drawn between a video game and neuroscience education… well, we might just have lost our way at some point.

• Neren says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 11:33 am

  I just posted the same thing on my blog
  It's elitism & exclusionism at it's worst
  The funny thing is that with people who think like this they'd be happy playing dungeon runners if they could still be 'leet'

• Calybos says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

  BadWabbit nailed it, perhaps unintentionally:

  "As of 2.4, there's really little reason to be a hardcore WoW player. Everyone is virtually on the same playing field."

  Exactly. There never WAS a reason to be a 'hardcore' player. That's not what WoW is about, or for. And having everyone on the same playing field—! The horror! The horror! (sarcasm)

• Heru-Ur says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  WoW is the MCDonalds of PC gaming, just because everyone eats it, doesn't mean its any good.

• Skumgummi says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

  # DownWithElitists says:
  March 6th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

  Look, if you are spending 5-6 hours a night raiding… hell, if you are even just PLAYING 5-6 hours a day you seriously need to seek psychological help.

  Quit whining about your effort and try putting some effort into the rest of your life. Then you might actually have "real" friends that you can do some "nonfantasy" stuff with.. like…oh…have sex!

  ________________________________________________

  5-6 hours?
  when someone goes out partying, lets ay they leave at 10, get home at lets say 5? how is that better then raiding 5-6 hours? and, how is it better to lets say,
  call a friend and walk around mindlessly in stores looking at stuff, then just talking over vent pvping or instancing together?
  and, my RL friends are still my RL friends even though theyre in wow when i speak to them…

  tard.

• Skumgummi says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

  and, who the hell has sex with there friends?!

• Skumgummi says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

  Richard, you know nihilum gets paid for what they do…

  this is like giving noobs in CS auto aim

  or giving noobs in RTSes 10000% more resources.

• Skumgummi says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:05 pm

  I agree with everything that this guy said. I was stuck in a casual guild with alot of skill and couldnt progress well because of gear and that hurt we could have done so much more. but i tried to get out and join a better guild a semi- hardcore raiding guild but they wouldnt accept me for 2 reasons my age and my gear and I had a good reputation as a great tank to but i couldnt get into guilds so i just quit.

  ___________________________________

  thats like saying: look i got this new game! halo 3 wow cool, ill just use this cheat so i can get to the end and see the epic ending.

• candlelight says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

  I like it,make it easyer to get gear make it more fun and less time comsuming for people that have a life other than live in a fanatasy world
  24/7..one reason im looking forward to like age of conan
  so i can get good gear and still have fun without have to play months to be able to get some gear that maybe good enough,and still get some challenge get it..

  and other thing:
  its enough work in real life to get money
  i dont want to spend the same time get fantasy gold and gear.
  so im happy that they make it easyer..good news:)

• Bo says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

  I have read all the comments above and not 1 seems to actually be from a hard core raider.

  I have played WOW from day 1 raided and completed every instance there is, I have spent hours researching tatics, hours implementing those tatics, hours upon hours of wiping improving those tatics. No once have I pushed this in anyone face.

  Yet all I see above is disdain and un-necessary use of swearing that is uncalled for and shows more about the person her wrote it than what they actually say.

  From I "hard core raider's" point of view I dont mind blizz removing the attunements, at the end of the day Blizz has made TBC 1 long rept grind anyway so this to me was just another grind.

  What I object to is that things that I have work so hard for are now given so easily, this is not elitest. The person who started this loves examples so here is 1. You work hard for an entire month on building a house, you use your own money to buy materials to build that house and despite set back after set back you finally succed, only for the bank to give that house to someone else because the havent worked hard…sound fair? What Blizz should do is, for example, through badge gear set people up so that they can attempt BT or Hijal and then through their hard work and progress get the rewards.

  People are so quick to slag off hard core raiders but I will bet my last £ that you have all watched the videos and read the tatics made by hard core raiders in order to find out what you should be doing not one of you will actually go in blind and try to work it out for yourselves. So if the hardcore raiders disappeared who would then do the hard work for you bums!! saying that I bet you would all moan and Blizz would have to make it even easier for you

• Mac says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  What people are forgetting is that the nex exp will bring new gear new attunements, new well everything, my guild has a lot of players who have been around since well the start, they are true hardcore and they don't give a crap about the devaluation so that others can get to all availble, they just say "hey we were 1st and we know it" and leave it at that. They know they are the best and help us that want to go to BT they don't mind the nerfs at all. I however would like to suggest to Blizz that could they just add 1 monster of a dungeon for these guys, I mean they are loyal, give them something that the need to work their asses for, maybe give them a special titel as reward on completion so that they can strut their stuff if they want. This way the game will be 99.99% open to people like me and some of the other posters here. And if those like me want that reward we will have to work for it or just leave it and most will because we wouldn't care eitherway.

• Bluedarky says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

  SO let me get this straight, people are moaning because,

  a. You no longer need to complete a special quest to enter certain raids.
  b. You can now buy equivilant Armour/Weapons for badges.

  Why is this a problem to Hardcore Raiders, if they do it correctly then it means that raiding guilds no longer have to hold new players hands to get through certain dungeons and they can recruit anyone without having to worry about if they're attuned for high level dungeons.

  In other words, more guild members who don't have to be supported though their first raids.

  It's responses to perfectly reasonable fixes like this that make me remember why I prefer to play CoX.

• Mithan says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

  If this means I will be able to see the inside of Black Temple some day without devoting my life to Raiding, then by all means dumb it down.

• Faia says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

  rly i like pre-tbc better some points:
  the raid instances in pre-tbc was more fun, AV was not a farming place but a REAL warfare!,onyxia was more fun the gruul (you see that fight is nearly same only in easy mode if you not taking him slow down)

  what i like with Tbc
  not hell much rep grinding to you puke(YAY!)dailys for repair, better loot, cool new spells, new talents (MM to hunter is still lame after 20 point T.T) more easy to get xp before hit ourland and best of all was honor gear

  now in 2.4:
  attunment…fine its okey as still! its hard, free badges….rly to be honest….i not see point in give them all free….but HEY! none said 100 % drop rate right? but to have them a few parts is okey, not like they can get a fulls et out of badges^_^

  but my advice…..now that we got new dailys….don't grind after badges…..farm the MONEY!…..learn form last expansion! LEARN! as i did fall for honor farm trap

• raidleader says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

  I sure as hell won't be picking up losers in Badge gear for my raids, Wow you can do 5 mans who bloody well cares, you have learned nothing about raiding in a 25 man environment. In fact I have put on our recruitment thread bads and losers need not apply.

  Hand out free epics and people think they actually deserve it and are good, LOL many aren't. Open Hyjal and BT sure i worked my ass off to get attuned to SSC, the Eye, Hyjal and BT but guilds can't get far there if they don't have the coordination but don't give them gear equal to or better than mine so they think they deserve a spot in my guild, they don't.

  I already have losers who think their welfare pvp epics make them raid worthy this will make it worse, can't wait for something better to come out and grats to End game guilds like Risen who are quitting wish I was a touch less addicted.

• Faia says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

  edit: forgot something" best of all was honor gear FOR the pvp players who not wanted to raid and stuff to be able to kill"

• Mayuiong says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

  A noob with some t6 gear will stay a noob, so don't cry about it. For some people PVE Is unreachable during their reallife, would you say that they aren't allowed to few a big part of the game? They pay the same amount of money, to get less content? This patch will save you alot of time, you might have the time to search a girlfriend and get kids, or you can PVP. The game is made for PvP, and PvE is only to get the gear. Blizzard has seen the light and saw that 99% of the players didn't have the time to PvE, and added the new stuff, and nerves.

  It's just great!

• cdg says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

  What competitive players grave for is recognition, it's not really so important how it comes, but it should come and should not be devalued.
  What i would like is some title system, currently one can get PvE titles for doing quests like killing Magtheridon, while some pvp titles are not accessible (try to get to high warlord nowadays ..). What i would propose is to give out titles for pve achievements before date X. (like, if You happened to kill Illidan before november 2007, You'll get epic slayer of illidan as title, and if You happened to kill it a bit later but before 2.4 You will just get slayer of illidan without epic). It would'nt really make game less accessible for more casual players while still giving hardcore players something others can't get (anymore…:P)

  And well, when anything fails there is still wowjutsu

• Tygera says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

  @Ron
  "A perfect place to see what I am talking about is this thread. A player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ offers up the following opinion:"

  It's funny how this article would take a outside source from a player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ on the forums.

  It just goes to show people will take information from anywhere just to try to prove their point.

  I totally disagree with whats said here. In fact it's quite pathetic.

  A perfect place to see what I am talking about is this thread. A player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ offers up the following opinion:

  @DownWithElitists
  As far as some of the comments that have been made. I find it funny people comment on how if you play a game for 5-6 hours you need to seek help. Then suggest having sex instead. Great solution.

• billever says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

  truthfully it dont matter to me what blizzard does but comming from a casual raiding perspective its bull crap to take the attunment completly out. why put them there in the first place if you was just going to remove them? there's still mc attunment and ony attunment as well as bwl and naxx. they wernt that hard to complete just took a little time a little bit of your precious time to get somewere you wanted to go. i mean for real anyone who plays even casually how many times a week do you do a heroic instance? pretty much only takes 3 to get ssc attunment done so whats that 1 day worth of your time to go somewere you want to go. but yet that was to hard for some people to do i guess. now to take out bt/hyjal lol the trash will soon show you that your not ready just like ssc has done in the past. i just hope that blizz relises that they will take attunment out in the long run so not put it in in the next expansion!

  BTW for thse who feel they deserve to see bt/hyjal without the prior raiding have fun (thems going to be some nasty repair bills)!!!!!!!!

• Tim says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

  as a not quite hardcore player who worked his ass off to get semi raid quality gear and my guild is almost at the point where we will be looking at vash and kael anyway (we downed fathom lord on our 3rd weekly look at him, 5 or 6 tries overall.. with the downing itself being a flawless win. 1 pally died, but was SS'd and self rezzed mid-fight, so everyone was technically alive when he died), I look at the 2.4 patch as a mixed blessing.. we'll be close to hyjal attuned anyway when it comes out, and the 2.4 badge gear will make the transition into the early hyjal fights that much smoother.

  removing the attunement reqs will open the floodgates into hyjal/BT, that much is true.. as will allowing guilds to go right to vash and kael in SSC and TK.. doesnt mean many of these unprepared guilds will have any success against them. the 2.4 badge gear will no doubt help there. but if they were having problems taking down hydross/VR, they'll have no chance against vash/kael, even with the new badge gear.

  what the attunement removal really does is lets raiding guilds that are close enough to being attuned anyway get an early look at them (any guild that is 4-5/6 SSC and 2-3/4 TK shouldn't have much of a problem with the early hyjal trash/first boss or 2 perhaps).

  but we wont know about that till 2.4 comes out, will we?

• Scair says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

  I'm not a hardcore player by any means; I've done 3 Heroics total and no raids. However, I can appreciate the raider's viewpoint. I actually WANT BT/Hyjal to be hard to get into and very hard to do. It seems as if everyone wants to have an equal shot at the top end gear/content, but if that happens, where does the epic feeling of this game go?

  Back in "classic" WoW (I started playing about 1.5 years before BC), I liked walking past the people in their T1/T2 in IF and drooling over their gear. Sure, I wanted to get into MC/AQ/Naxx, but I didn't mind that I couldn't unless I was willing to expend a lot more time. It was the wide breadth of gear and experience between me and the guy next to me in T2 that made the game feel epic.

  Sure, from what I've heard, 40-mans were a bit much to manage, and yeah, the ranked honor system was broken, but I can't help but look at BC and think Blizz went too far. 25-man raids, fine, but nerfing the entry requirements and now even the instances themselves? I WANT that challenge there. A PvP system where just being in the BG and moving around a bit guarantees enough honor for epic PvP gear in a few weeks?

  My point is this: for WoW to feel epic, for the grand sense of scale and adventure to be there, I believe there must be strong barriers between what is accessible to casuals, semi-casuals, and hardcore players. Those barriers shouldn't be insurmountable, but neither should they be practically nonexistent. Remove the attunements, give high-level epics for Heroic badges, create a "welfare epic" system like they've done with PvP, and it just doesn't do it for me. I want to work HARD for my rewards, and if certain rewards are out of my reach because I don't care to raid multiple nights a week or hone my PvP skills, I'm fine with that.

  Being able to admire Bret Farve's accomplishments is far better in my book than looking around and seeing 75% of the people around me easily achieving what he worked hard for.

• Slayinggod says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

  Basically, Blizzard is doing two things with this patch. First, they are making it possible for those who are not dedicated to progression able to progress just as fast as those who are. Secondly, they are creating WoW Welfare.

  If you would like an analogy, here goes: I work very hard at my job, to the point where I have pissed other workers off with how many raises I have gotten. I enjoy work, its a challenge for me. I right now am only able to afford a fairly decent car, a 2002 Hyundai Accent. It works well for the price. I live in a decent neighborhood, where rent is fairly balanced. Its not the ghetto, but not the best place in town. I make sure I work enough to pay for what I have, even though at times it can be hard. So should it bother me that the next punk, who works at a job getting paid 5.50 under the table, claims he has no income to the government, and receives welfare, lives in subsidized housing for little to no cost(which is generally now up to par with houses that sell for 500k in my area), gets to drive a BMW and eat at restaurants I could only dream of, all the while smiling as he rapes my country and gives back only the minimum amount required? Hell yes! Blizz is going to destroy any integrity they had by making it so it requires no skill or effort to win. Its like those kids who think they are something special because they managed to graduate from High School. Great, you have only accomplished what hundreds of millions of other kids have, and quite possibly with more style than you. Blizz needs to add something to strive for, to desire working for. Otherwise, why play? If its just as easy to win the game as it is to turn my PC on, Ill just leave it off. Leave those who want a mindless game to play bejeweled or spend hours numbing their mind to those games on yahoo.com.

• Tiiara says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

  I, personally, think like Badwabbit. It certainly feels like a ripoff to have all you've worked hard for during serveral months, just be handed out on a silver plate to the masses, that for one reason or another, are incapable to get it before it's nerfed to oblivion.

  Many of the ppl that arguments that the content should be open up to the masses, seem to have a bit of a more sloppy attitude. Like "family, friends and real life comes first" and "It's just a game, it's suppose to be fun". Fine. But it still doesn't answer why the absolute latest content should be avilable straight off right after the "hardcore" players have finished it. If you're not hardcore, you can still go raid MC, BWL, AQ40 and NAXX, now can't you? But no..? It ain't fun? Why? Becuase all them casual player with all so important real lifes wanna just log in, grab some gear and stand around in Ironforge and go "ooh, look at me new shiny loot"? Honestly.. come on. If you wanna play the game for fun, then do so. Just stop expecting the best and the latest of things to be handed to you. If you wanna see all the content, fine.. then do so. Find equal minded and go raid Naxxramas. All those arguements can be fulfilled without robbing the hardcore player base of their achievements.

  Oh, and @AFK..
  Why should achievments in a game be any less then other games, like soccer for example? There you got a bunch of idiots all chasing the same ball, and for that hundreds of thousands of people gather, cheer and passivly watch the shit. And for those that "achieve" in that, they throw millions at.. *cough*Beckham*cough*. Oh yeah, you are absolute right.. games.. what a ridiculous thing. ^^

• Cloudkiller says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

  You all do realize that WOTLK is coming out soon right? So what if they make some stuff that hardcore raiders worked their asses off, easier for casuals to get. More than likely everything will start over again in the next XP. TBH for everyone that is upset that gear is being given out, o well. It may not be completely fair but thats life. Like some people have said, we all pay the same amount for this game and want to see all of the content it has to offer.

• Voodoofoo says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

  I cant help but to agree with the post above me. I raided Bwl, Mc, tk, ssc, and am about to embark upon hyjal/bt. I personally do not have a issue with making badge gear as good as BT/hyjal loot, the only outcome I see from this change is alot of people that may be considered "casual players" getting good loot and progressing in the game, but I have looked through the sunwell loot and the new badge loot and from a teir 5 element shamans POV, I'd still take some BT loot over badge loot Because according to my specs and comparisons, if I want haste gear, go badge but if i want true dps gear, go raiding.

  and as far as the attunment issue, the difference between raid guilds that are successful and those whom come up short is coordination. Even if these lower casual players get their shinny new badge gear, it takes commitment and coordination to succeed in raids, and if new high end raid guilds emerge, all I have to say is welcome, is that such a bad thing?

  As far as personally what I want for next expansion is enough challenge with the new hero classes to help balance the serious pvp and Pve flaws and gaps between certain classes, for instance, locks need some serious work, a class that can top DPS meters AND giggle as they fear bomb and dot classes to death is unreal… but thats neither here nor there. all I'm saying is balance the classes and give us some challenging content anyone can step up to the plate and challenge, no matter how much they play.

• TheRugger says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

  I agree with the sentiments in this article. Some people simply cannot devote the time and effort required to get to the higher level instances (props to those that can and do). I, for example, am a 'mature age player' (that's putting it lightly) who has a family and I am also a shiftworker. It is simply not possible for me to put in the hours needed each and every night required to get to the higher level content. No hardcore raiding guild would have me because of my situation, but I would love to be able to get to see the higher level content. This is a way that I can see the content while not being a drag on the group. I do, however, have to put in the time running the Heroics over and over again to get the badges to get the gear so I can contribute to the group on the odd occasion I am available to go to the instance. This also enables the more casual player to be able to 'fill in' when a hard core guild needs one or two geared players to fill in on a raid. How many times have even the hardest core guild had to call off a raid because some people were not able to make it on a particular night? I see this as a 'win-win' move by Blizzard.

• Rofocal says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

  I'm fine with the attunements being opened up and the gear being given out like that. It doesn't take away the accomplishments raiders have. If anything it takes it away from the people who didn't do all that beforehand. They don't get to feel how it felt to bash your head against a wall trying to learn kael then finally it clicks and he dies. They don't get the sense of accomplishment of finally getting the guild ready for hyjal/BT. It's their loss not ours.

  To those thinking raiders are assholes, elistest, etc. Sorry but most of the comments made towards raiders aren't any better. I don't really see how making comments about the time raiders put in is witty, intelligent, or mature. You think it's more like work? Fine, but it's not really your business to judge us on that. I don't really care if you say that to the idiots crying about this issue but guess what, not all of us are and your blanketing stereotypical remarks make you just as much of an idiot as they are. So gratz on "having a life outside of wow" no one gives much of a shit. Just go see your new content (if you can make it through it) and shut up about it.

• Tempyr says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

  I truly do agree with the last few replies. My guild on a newer server is the top alliance guild. We've worked tremendously hard to get down Vashj, and Kael. We've been able to kill all but the last Hyjal boss and the first two bosses in BT. We worked our butts off to get these down before the patch. Why? Cause we wanted to EARN the privilege of seeing the instances the way they were meant to be played. I do understand that most guilds that haven't worked as hard as we have, will not be able to progress very far into the instances. I also know that the ones of us who have gotten the items legitimately will not respect the players that buy their gear with badges. It's not pretty to say, but ultimately it's true.

  Yes, Blizzard is a business. Yes, they need to keep their fan base happy. However, it is essential for people to have something to work towards, even if it seems unattainable. Otherwise, it will get old very fast.

  I would hate to see level 10 toons with epic mounts, just because it would make more casual people happy to have mounts at 10 instead of 40, 60, or 70. Catering to the lowest common denominator works if all you want is mediocrity. But nothing exceptional ever comes from that attitude.

• JarithOne says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

  I am so happy my 65yr. friend is going to get into Kara, Gruul, SSC, and TK. I can't stop smiling about the few hundreds who are going to quit the game (I am tired of log-in que's) I play on a PVE server (RPPVE) not a PVP one because I got very sick of some 12yr. player who spent every Hr. in BG's (insted of doing school/home work till "it's" parents forced "it" in to bed) with PVP gear "raiding" lowbie areas.

  I am a Casual Gamer, I have seen MC, BWL, AQ20, Kara, Gruul, and Lurker. Look Me up (Brandywyne on Farstriders) I have had fun playing WOW I started 1 week after launch and will be there to see WOTLK. I am THE MAJORITY player type on most servers. Gold farmers and HardCore Raiders sicken me for the same reason, the have stopped playing a game for fun and have turned it in to some bastardization of a job!
  I have had T.5, T1, and T2 gear I have T4 and hope to get T5 some day. I will get BADGES then I will get gear>T5 because it will help me see BT(maybe Hyjal)

  Slayinggod says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

  Basically, Blizzard is doing two things with this patch. First, they are making it possible for those who are not dedicated to progression able to progress just as fast as those who are. Secondly, they are creating WoW Welfare.

  This person need to know 85% of welfare recipients are single WHITE WOMEN WITH 1 TO 2 KIDS!!!!!! WOW welfare that is laughable statement. Show me some one who plays WOW on welfare and I will turn them over to the state for malingering (look it up)

  So what it will be easer to gear up for raids, to get in to the instance and maybe down a boss or two. Good for us we play the same game and Blizzard sees this. You want to cry foul, fix the PVP players that take PVP gear in to PVE. If you prevent PVP'ers from using the arena/BG rewards in PVE, 75% of PVP would stop tomarrow.

  It is good you care about some thing just stop ranting. 80% of current players will never express an opinion on this subject we will just keep playing. Blizzard knows this and will gladly scrap 4% of it's player base to keep the 96%!!!!!!!!! happy and playing.
  Look at that number… 96%… kinda says it all doesn't it..
  Yay Blizzard for keeping the game accessable to me the Casual Gamer and giving me more to play with!! I win because WE as a whole are the reason YOU as an individual get to play in the first place.
  Hardcore gamer sounds like some kinda extremist group any way (watch out the US may declare war on you. They have already stated they are searching for terrorists on WOW) Why would any business at all cater to the lowest % of the money influx in ANY game/service/job/market.
  They won't thats why nurfs happen and Blizzard will continue "dumb down" the game untill it appeals to the widest % of players, the Casual Gamer.
  I say too you find a publisher and a developer to make your own MMO. After competing for a while you to will see why Blizzard does the nerfs and upgrades.

• SickofElitistplayers says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

  or just do like I did and quit wow because of all the elitists and just make your own private server for your own self and then see content that way. That way you can also test out other classes at 70 to see if you like playing that class at 70. I did I love it. I'll prolly come back to the game when lich king comes out but if the attitudes of those elitists "I'm better than you because I raid 6 times a week." Don't stop I'll quit again and go back to playing my private server on my own computer by myself.

• Dewayne says:
  March 11th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

  I play wow or did and I'm on social security disability for extreme bipolarism. I take medications a lot which is one reason whY i can't raid. Its also one of the reasons why I got kicked out of my guild because I couldn't raid when they wanted me to even when I explained my medical condition

• Litvan says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 12:07 am

  Scair says it all…

  "Being able to admire Bret Farve's accomplishments is far better in my book than looking around and seeing 75% of the people around me easily achieving what he worked hard for."

  Having said that… then yeah.. Blizz have to earn money.. to do that… keep as many as possible happy… it's pure logic…

  And for ppl bashing "elites" (I don't see myself as elite) about getting a life… we do have one.. that we're just better at managing our free time is just a proof of what.. that we actually strive for something without expecting someone to bring it to us on a silver platter without gettin off your lazy ass….

  as commented somewhere above… what would you do if it wasn't for the hardcore gamers in the first place going in there and actually make a guide that you could use to beat the encounter…. whine even more, than we the "hardcore" are now, for yet another nerf???

  What it comes down to.. (for me) is that the welfare epics is good for casuals… I just don't like the attitude that ppl saying "I'm epic, I deserve respect for being lazy"… ok.. side-tracked there a little… it comes down to blizz could atleast recognize our hard effort for testing their content before opening it to the rest of the player-base… for me a simple title would do the trick… and the "hand of adal" just doesn't cut it….
  I'd want something similar to the AQ opening title… exceptionally hard to get and not something my neighbour could get just for copying my work

• Lukas Debeer says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 12:49 am

  Well i pay the same money as everyone else and as a casual player raiding is not my thing. So what if you had to get attuned for a dungeon you did it good for you. As a casual player that are playing to have fun and like a previous poster said i dont wanna go through a damn joblike interview before i can join a guild that do these raids. Its about time that Blizzard looked at the casual player. If you compare im sure you will find that the ratio of casual to hardcore raider will stack up to the casual side and tho i think that some sort of reward for these raiding guilds is appropriate im glad that people would get the chance to at least be able to get decent weapons, armor without having to buy it for totally stupid prices at ah. Im also sure that this move by blizzard would bring the casual community back to wow.

• KeJorn says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 2:07 am

  Face it. Not everyone can devote the millions of hours online just to finally hit lvl 70, max out your profs, then gear up for Kara, Gruul, BT, and ZA raids, through rep, BGs, and Arena Honor. It gets ridiculous and takes forever. People lose relationships that way. It's getting bad.

  I'm all for another way to get decent gear. Thank you Blizzard. I have a life outside of WoW and I don't have to give it up to enjoy both worlds.

  Now, could you PLEASE add more Tasty Fish pools during the fishing tournaments? Fighting over the few that pop up truly sucks. Wasting hours on my Sundays trying to catch a damn rare fish, week after week is getting old.

  Also, any possible way to handle the rabid inflation occuring inside AH? What can we do to bring the prices back down and keep the gold spammers at bay?

• Sirg says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 3:22 am

  Removing some attunement chains? Yes
  Nerfing content like Magtheridon and making hard earned titles easy to get? NO

• Schiro says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 3:51 am

  First of all, if it wasn't for hard core gamers casual players wouldn't have a chance at most of this game content anyway. For people who think that WoW would be more fun once the hard core gamers leave. Trust me, if they leave you will be leaving soon after. Those people pave the way for the rest of us.

  Now as far as everyone seeing the new content. That is a point I honestly never thought of before. My guild never made it through BWL, so we never saw AQ40 or Naxx. Thats ok with me you know why? We didn't do the work required in order to get that far. If I really wanted to see those instances I'm sure a hardcore raider has a movie up in world of warcraft movies.com. Yet I can see Blizz mentality about wanting everyone to experience the content.

  Yet something should be done about the trailblazers. The people who actually rise up to the challenge of the game. I would suggest more then just a title. I think a set of trinkets/weapons only available to those who did the attunements and finished the raids before a certain date? Maybe special mounts. Cooler looking ones that require one second less to mount up.

  As for myself. I will be leaving the game. I haven't been a hardcore raiding since TBC came out. Mostly because of real life responsibilities, but also because I see how blizzard just nerfs everything to oblivion. This makes me not even want to bother putting the effort into it. I mean why bother? If I wait a bit blizzard will just hand me the gear.

  One last thing. All you casual gamers complaining about wanting to see new content, how many of you guys would be willing to see the new content if you couldn't get the gear it came with? Most casual gamers who complain about hardcore gamers are just ppl that want the same gear that they have without putting any work into it

• Bulletman says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 4:18 am

  If you think that it's such a horrible thing to remove the attunement and hand out badge gear, then just get the rest of the like-minded people to just go on strike and not go into those raid dungeons until after Blizzard decides to nerf them. Then you won't have all that hard work to do and can do it the same way everyone else down the road will be doing it.

  By doing this it saves both sides from having to hear all the bitching, moaning, and groaning going on. This way we can all have fun together.

• pooty says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 5:39 am

  i think its ok to want everyone to see the content they make.
  but i also feel that the hardcore should have somthing to show their accomlishments. and dont get me started on arena welfare epics.

• Gorm says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 7:52 am

  People who think the game is going to be ruined.
  Can I have your stuff when you leave? Don't be shy, leave now to avoid the rush. All your efforts was worthless anyways, all your accomplishments dust.
  Good riddance.

  I was in a top raiding guild on my server. We wasn't the best but we were top five for Horde. We had fun. We had wipes. We had whine. We had bitching.
  But over all we had fun. Because we got to see the game. And we managed to beat bosses that other people didn't.

  The loot was nice, but to be perfectly honest with you. I would have done it without the loot. No problem.

  Because, hard as it migth be for the mentally challenged to understand, loot doesn't matter. It's dust. Next dungeon you'll see a better sword and you won't keep your old junk lying around for sentimental value because you have limited inventory space and zillions of keys and quest items and reagents take up the slots.

  The experience though, that lasted. That lasted longer than our guild which was torn apart by people not being able to stick to the guild in the slightest adversion. People who were more concerned about loot than fun or content. And to be honest… that's a sucky attitude.

  The game doesn't become a diffrent game just because someone can get a few pieces of purple loot by the time your entire guild is kitted out with the highest tier. The game doesn't becoma a diffrent game just because people who pay to play the bloody thing gets access to the stuff they pay for.

  If you want to get content to yourself, fine… pay for half my monthly fee and you can have all my raiding content.

• Stefan D. Poulsen says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 8:33 am

  Yes it's fine that people can get straight into Sunwell or is it…honestly I don't look at myself hardcore in anyway or as an elite player, but still i saw AQ40, killed c'thun, saw most of Naxx etc. Now I'm the guildmaster/recruiter of a guild that just entered MH/BT.
  I wish for a wider player base to recruit from of course cause some people just never learn how to fit in a raid with their chosen class. What badges will do for me…well I will probably get loads of applications that i need to spend my time deciphering and I will need to check up on people allot more than i already do. Cause honestly it doesn't matter at all if you have full T6 or equivalent if you still haven't got the needed skills for a T6+ instance. We have ditched loads of people by now that simply weren't good enough for progressing. Failing to dps right targets, breaking sheeps, spamming wrong heals, pulling aggro and loads of other reasons…we all fail at some point but some people just don't give a damn about not wasting 24 other peoples time.

  Where do i wanna go with this…

  Pros:
  I will get a wider player base.
  It will give more people a chance to get into the bigger (more progressed) guilds
  It will give the masses a chance to feel "special"
  Itemization becomes cheaper.

  Cons:
  GM/Recruiters will have to be even more nazi about the people that apply
  More time, gold, pots, consumables in general will be wasted due to bad players
  It will be a punch in the face for most MH/BT raids now…"I entered BT and all I got was this cheap title and a necklace"
  People won't pay to much attention on itemization since it's easy to get new gems
  Prices on auction houses will be bashed to hell, all alchemists will know how few flasks they actually sell after the flasks for marks was introduced.

• lol at raiders says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 8:52 am

  i think that if changes like this devalue ones perceptions of achievement within a virtual game world that will not last then said individuals need to seriously consider turning off their computers, opening up there windows and letting the sun into their eyes and perhaps maybe even going outside once and awhile.

• cubert says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am

  There are those who can and those who can't. This changes nothing. I know that the casual people see 27,000 honor for a staff as being so daunting they will never even get started. I know people who I still can't drag (yes drag) through the kara chain.

  I fall between the casual and the hard core. I play a lot but I don't raid much. This offers people like me who are able to put hours into the game to progress and to continue to have something to accomplish. Raiding should not be about the loot as much as it is about the encounters and accomplishments.

  Lets face it, 150 badges for a sweet 2h weapon still requires a heck of a lot of effort. Figure at 5 badges per day thats 30 days of doing heroics. All for one piece of gear. Its still a lot of work guys.

  I do agree that there are things that can be put into the 25 man content to make it more rewarding and to differentiate it from all the other ways of getting gear. Right now those things are crafting patterns and enchants. Blizz could surely add more of this type thing and even go so far as to greatly increase the amount of gold dropping and make those people flat out rich….

• Myria says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 9:39 am

  Casual gamer thinks game should cater to them and no one else.

  Wow, that's a new and original point-of-view, sure to convince everyone.

• Ron Whitaker says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 9:42 am

  @cubert: I actually think the idea of a title that is difficult to attain for those who've had that content on farm for a while is a good idea. Perhaps something that requires you to have completed all the attunement quest chains as well as downed a specific Sunwell boss?

  I'm not sure what the specifics of such a title should be, but it should be made so that the players who receive it are those who have spent a ton of time in those raids. That would be an immediate marker of that player's accomplishments.

  _____________________________

  For all those who are bashing hardcore players, don't. Hardcore players push content for the rest of us. They give us something to work toward.

  I don't think Blizzard is or has any future plans to cater to that demographic, but they should invest some effort in making sure that they continue to offer content for those players. It's a tricky balance to strike, especially when you're trying to maximize the return on your development dollars.

• Salidry says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 11:16 am

  I think you're an idiot "Ron." How many other MMOs have you played? Same question goes for everyone else who doesn't think Blizz is completely f'ing up wow more and more every patch. WoW is in the bottom 25% of good mmos. They have money and have advertised more than any other MMO to date, therefore they have a sh*tpot of new players that have never expierenced playing a good MMO. That is the biggest reason why so many of you people are sticking up for this game. You don't know what good gameplay or a good MMO are like. Most of us are just playing WoW because there hasn't been a good MMO release since WoW came out. Lets see what happens with WAR and AoC. GL finding hardcore gamers to lead your raids, maintank your raids, and run your guilds at that point.

• JT says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 11:34 am

  I honestly don't see a problem with removing attunement quests. It's not as if these new raiders will go into Hyjal and wtfpwn everything, the first boss would wipe them enough to stop them from trying. The real problem is when you make boss fights easier in the hope that casual gamers get to see it too. Getting to BT takes hard work, and though many may scoff at such raiders, claiming that they have a life and can't spend every night raiding, the simple truth is that if you want something good, you have to work for it. If you want to spend your days zipping around in a big red Ferrari then you're going to have to work very hard to get it.

  If you say that since you pay the same subscription fees as a hardcore raider, you ought to experience the content that they can, then sure, you're more than able to. Just play more, you'll get there eventually. But if your other commitments stop you from doing that, how does that give you the right to experience content that takes months of hard work to acquire? Raiding isn't all fun and games. I've experienced all the content up to hyjal, and honestly, it is a very tiring and frustrating experience. When you've wiped for the 20th time and your repair bills start becoming overwhelming, you start to wish you never tried in the first place. But that just makes the eventual victory even sweeter. And that's just up to hyjal, i shudder to imagine how much effort it takes to clear black temple.

  Simply put, if you want to experience end level content, then simple make time to work towards it. When Blizzard dumbs down the game and makes things easier to acquire, what is going to make me want to strive for better things? Why would i bother running raids 5 times a week if i knew that in a few months blizzard is going to make it all simple and idiot proof. If you want your game simple and idiot proof, then stick to 5 mans. Simple as that.

  Can't blame blizzard though. a corporation exists to earn money, and this is the best way for them to do that right now…

• itsagame says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

  those who look at it one way, aren't looking at it as a big picture..
  you need to look at it, as blizzard as a business… as a pvper, as a raider… as someone who gets on for short times while the kids finally are sleeping…
  you need to realize that because its a game that follows a story line generally doesn't mean its going to do it all the time… because there are paying customers and blizzard needs to maintain good business..
  as far as those raiders who feel that, certain places/bosses should only be seen by the "worthy" aka sank tons of time and effort alot of other folks haven't to get to said place/boss… look at it like this…

  your working your butt off at your 7.00 an hour job working 80 hours a week tryin to break a decent check, where someone else might work half that and make double what you are, with less education…
  you would be upset, think life was unfair, and wonder how come you can't get a slice of that pie so to speak.
  now think of the person doing better then you saying to you "haha you gotta kiss this much butt to get where i am, you'll never do it, you gotta be worthy!"

  that type of attitude its stupid.. you should worry about you ! not others.. if you play a game to go somewhere someone else can't… then you live in a fantasy world because that will never happen.

  as for loyalty…. most people playing wow don't know what respect/honor or loyalty is.
  people who camp someone over and over for no reason, people who join a guild for the main reason of using to get gear, those who don't go along with required guild functions such as ventrilo, or signups for raids for example.
  those who try to make money off of every lil thing making it harder on those who can't afford things.
  folks who don't realize its horde vs alliance…. you should be happy your side is doing great in whatever aspect your side is forging forward in.
  those are examples of people who don't have respect/honor/loyalty..

  by giving folks the chance at MH/BT etc.. is giving blizz good business… giving those players who work hard in rl have families etc that really wanna see those contents but can't, or those folks who can't get into good guilds because of stupid invite requirements.. you should be looking at it like these few ways:

  for pvp, any one on your side "horde or allie" you should be glad folks are getting better gear, so you win more.

  for raiding, you should be happy more folks on your side are getting more progression done so your server looks better and your side looks better.

  stop being a bunch of selfish babies!

  be happy this isn't under the old Ultima Online rules… you die you chance losing all of your stuff, be happy you can at least keep your crap when you get it!

• its4fun says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

  I am a member of the top progressing guild on my server and I am really excited about 2.4. I think that it will be awesome that more players will be able to experience the top raid instances the blizz has put so much work into and hopefull have just as much fun as I did moving through them.

  Its a game and you should play for fun…if 2.4 allows more people to have more fun playing the game then im all for it!!

• Dadou131988 says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

  After reading what Curse has to say about what Blizzard is doing, I can only say that i feel relieved.
  I 100% agree to everything Ron said: Beeing against these new changes is selfish, instances shouldnt only be about loot!
  The end-game content should be available to anyone, otherwise, its only going to waste.
  People need to realise that this game is supposed to be FUN, for everyone, not just elitist guilds.

  Nice move Blizzard. I'ts no wonder your MMO is at the top.

• Bring it says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

  ok it drives me nuts too hear everyone talkink about how people are dumb because thier guild or they have never been in bt or hyjal yet. This is GROSSLY disgusting. I am one of those that has not exp the high level content and prob never will cause…OH this is a dam game not my life. I have a full time job and a family that comes first before any game. So if me not seeing the high level content makes me dumb than WOW. I love this game possibly the best game I have ever played, and still I think it is the best one out there with the exception of the release of WAR online. I don't know where I stand as far as getting equal gear to people that have raided the high content, but I do believe that like a job you should get rewarded for the warok you do. But this certainly does not make you 22 hours a day raiding 3 to 4 days a week at the same time for 6-7 hours or whatever you do, smarter than me. It just simply mean that WoW is your priority in your life and that you have no other responsibilities in your life and if you do than shame on you for putting WoW above them. Anyways live on freaks Nerds rule and everyone else Drulezzzzz.

• Shathira says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  I look at it like this.

  I'm part of a guild that has a strong base, but still is a casual guild. We don't get the chance to spend hour after hour in game at the same time. That makes it difficult at best, if not impossible to get to the end game raids like Black Temple. Are we any less skilled than some of the high end raid guilds? No, not at all. In many cases, I'd put our players in with any of the those guilds, and you'd never be able to tell the difference, skill wise. Drop us into BT now, and we'd get annihilated.

  While I agree that the nerfing of things is going to allow some people that have little skill to get to the end game things, it's also going to let a large population of gamers, such as myself and my guild, who will do well (after getting our throats stepped on a few times I'm sure), but simply could not dedicate time as a group to finish all the attunments. Many of our players do log a lot of time in game, and have a good skill base, but as a group we don't have a huge amount of time together.

  This patch is aimed at that type of player, mostly. I wasn't whining about not seeing that content. I figured we'd get there…eventually. This patch gives this type of player the break we need to see this content earlier. It also makes it so people will get a chance to see it before the expansion, so they don't have underutilized content, like Naxx.

  I have nothing against the hardcore raider. They spend their time raiding, because that's what they like doing. They do pave the way, certainly. We should recognize that effort.

  At the same time, the hardcore raider should realize that in order for Blizzard to make the new challenge that they can tackle, Blizzard needs revenue, and the hardcore gamers, by themselves, aren't enough of a monetary base to let them do that. They need for there to be the "middle class" gamer, because if that bulk of the gamers that play started to leave, there wouldn't be any further challenges created for the hardcore raider. Blizzard just made the game more attractive for that middle of the road gamer, which in turn is going to allow them to create more, challenging content.

  Like it or not, both type of gamer needs the other

  Another thing to look at is this. How long is it going to take for people to get geared up via badges? Even if it goes quickly, (remember these are casual players, we're sumizing here) we're looking at a month or two (hypothetically). Then how long will it take for them to get good enough to take out the end game stuff? Another couple of months? I think that's generous. By the time the truly casual player (not the middle of the road player like myself and my guild) gets through BT, I suspect that hardcore raiders will have new challenges to meet, offered up by Blizzard. And by the time those challenges are conquered, the expansion will most likely be out, leading to more challenges.

• Richard says:
  March 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

  Hehe i don't mind the game one way or another. I think they should